UNREHEARSED with Joanna Basile
Former counselor & music exec, host Joanna Basile brings you off-the-cuff conversations with some of her favorite people and well-known friends. Listen as Basile & Co. take deep dives into unexpected topics that may enlighten, motivate and even challenge you. Join her on the road to redemption as she navigates life in the middle lane.
UNREHEARSED with Joanna Basile
Truth or Dare w. Tommy Daley
Join Basile and Black Shag's Tommy Daley for his first ever podcast! Discover Tommy's inspiring journey from glam rocker and record intern to Nashville entrepreneur and leader in vintage fashion. Listen as he shares tales from the '90s Sunset Strip music scene, the famed Melrose Avenue, his rise at the iconic Capitol Records and the road to redemption.
Go check out all that is Black Shag Vintage. And make sure you follow their magnetic Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.
When in Nashville, Black Shag is a must-visit destination. The flagship store is housed in historic fire station no. 18 at 1220 Gallatin Ave in East Nashville. The new location can be found in Marathon Village.
Producer's Note: Special special thanks to Kyle Ross for his wizardry on summed stems. GTS. (Google that shit.) Holding Tommy to his promise to record a part two so we can hear the behind-the-scenes of the shop's success and perhaps some sordid styling stories. JB
Follow, rate and share if you dig the podcast. Follow Basile's antics on Instagram and Twitter, and check out the website for even more.
In the meantime, take care of one another.
Welcome to Unrehearsed. I'm your host, Joanna Basile, and today's guest is the incomparable Tommy Daley, the owner of Black Shag Vintage. What else, Tommy?
Tommy Daley:I don't know, in general just good human, I guess.
Basile:Good human advocate for others.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, I'm an advocate for others. For sure, I love others. You are. You do some good stuff for the community and the for others.
Basile:For sure I love others you are. You do some good stuff for the community and the folks that work for you. I just try to be a good person. Well, that's the end of the podcast, Thank you.
Tommy Daley:It was lovely.
Basile:We've had to restart a couple times. I had a technical difficulty and, yeah, you said I was nervous. You were like staring at me, and then I think I'm having a hot flash.
Tommy Daley:Well, we're just having a conversation here, right? That's what this is about "Unrehearsed. Look at that in sync. How about that?
Basile:So tell us more.
Tommy Daley:Well, do you just fire some questions at me, and I think that's the best way to go.
Basile:Well, I've left out the musician part. Why don't we start there?
Tommy Daley:The musician part. Well, I've always been a musician. I mean, do you want me to tell a little bit of my backstory? Absolutely Well, I was born in the 60s, I was a kid in the 70s, I was a teenager in the 80s, I was a young man in the 90s and then I became a man at the end of the 90s into the 2000s. I've always grew up in Buffalo, new York, always been a musician. He loved Kiss and rock and roll and became a guitar player and did all that stuff. When I turned 21, I moved to LA. To be a rock star Was towards the end of the whole Sunset Strip thing. You know a lot of the glam metal and the Roxy, the whiskey and the rainbow and all that stuff in the very early 90s. As one does yeah, that's what people did and it was phenomenal as a 21-year-old kid in Los Angeles, in Hollywood, just that was my education, that was my college.
Basile:I was so glad I wasn't there for that, because I'd probably be dead.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, I mean, well, when you're young and resilient, none of that, you don't think about that stuff. You just go in the moment and it's you know. You're just searching for the next fun thing to do. And I had a band, put the band together and played the Whiskey and the Roxy and the Troubadour.
Basile:What was the name of that band?
Tommy Daley:It was a band called Truth or Dare. It was called Truth or Dare and then, like six months after we started the band, madonna came out with her movie called Truth or Dare. See, it was a good name. It was a good name but that kind of deflated it. Plus, things were changing in the world of music. Then you know bands like Jane's Addiction and Red Hot Chili Peppers and Tool and Rage Against the Machine. All these bands were bubbling up so it was kind of like pushing away all the. You know the Skid Rose and the Warrants and Motley Crue's. It was making it harder. Everyone says grunge killed rock, but it wasn't just quickly.
Basile:It was. It was gradual, but most people didn't see it that way.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, it was over like five years and, you know, and I loved all of it. I loved Alice in Chains, I love Soundgarden, I love Metallica, I love Megadeth. You know, I didn't see it. As you know, we can look back and see it now. Everyone thinks grunge killed it. I mean, I guess it did, but it was a slow death and I just rode along with it. And then, you know, things changed and then I stumbled into the record business. You know, I stumbled into an internship at Capitol Records.
Basile:So did you seek it out, or was it just an opportunity that formed and you took it?
Tommy Daley:It didn't really form. I was working at a retail place on Melrose Avenue, which was the great street at the time. It was just like awesome.
Basile:I used to travel to LA just to get my hair cut and go shopping.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, it was the best thing. It was so much going on there. Just rock stars, movie stars, every day and just cool stores.
Basile:Well, let me ask you this Is that where you got the idea for the vintage store?
Tommy Daley:It informed where I am now for sure. Oh yeah, a lot. You know, when I was working at a retail place, you know, I mean it was like a store. I worked at Mellor's and like Mick Jagger would come in and buy kids' books, you know, and I'd have to ring him up at the register. It was just like every day there was crazy shit like that happening all the time and it was cool.
Tommy Daley:And then how I got into the record business, the, the manager of the shop I was working at, which was a place called the soap plant and they still exist, but on a different street now um, the manager came in with like a bag of cds saying, hey, I got all these free cds from capital records. I was, I was interning there. I'm like I want some free cds. So she said, call this guy. So I I called the guy and he said, yeah, come on up. So I went up to the Capitol Tower, the big round tower on Hollywood and Vine on the eighth floor looking at the Hollywood sign, such an iconic building.
Tommy Daley:And you know I wasn't going to college or anything. Usually when you have an internship you have to go to college. I just walked in there. He was cool. You know I had long hair. He's like yeah, man, do you want to call some radio stations? So I started calling. He gave me a call sheet with college radio stations. So call these college radio stations and talk about the Beastie Boys, see where they're, you know if they can play them more.
Basile:So you were basically working the Beastie Boys records right away for free.
Tommy Daley:Without any training or whatsoever and it was great and I was like this is awesome. And sure enough, he opened up the CD cabinet at the end of the day and gave me a bag of CDs. I'm like this is the greatest thing in the world.
Basile:Do you remember that that was one of the perks of being in the music business back in the day? Was you got all this free swag, which included just boxes and boxes and boxes of CDs?
Tommy Daley:Yeah, I mean it was the greatest thing. I mean you couldn't do better, as, being a musician and loving music, you know, getting a box of free CDs because nobody you know you can't afford, because this was right at the beginning of CDs too. Like CDs were blown up, I mean I would go to Tower Records and I would buy like one CD.
Basile:Did you ever join the record clubs?
Tommy Daley:I was in the record clubs for vinyl in the 80s. But yeah, when I moved to LA I was living on a you know Shoestring budget, shoestring budget man. It was like you know.
Basile:Where did you live? Which area did you live?
Tommy Daley:I lived in a studio apartment with four dudes my band on Wilcox and Hollywood Boulevard.
Basile:Okay.
Tommy Daley:It was crazy the way that we lived and the drummer he was the first one to move there and he brought his king-size waterbed. So there was a king-size waterbed in this studio apartment and the three of us and him had to share this room, but the waterbed basically took up the whole room.
Basile:I don't even want to know. I just was just shaking my head and like closing my eyes tight, like I don't want to hear. I don't want to know.
Tommy Daley:We all had those little folding cushions that were like futons.
Basile:What happened when you brought chicks home?
Tommy Daley:It happened, it just happened. Sometimes we would like give each other privacy and space, and it happened, it just happened. Sometimes, shaking my head, we would like give each other Privacy, privacy and space. You know or not, you know it was a wild time back in the early 90s, I know, but anyway. So that's where I lived and then, you know, that's where my whole life changed. That's where I learned about everything.
Tommy Daley:You know, I came from Buffalo, a small town in Buffalo called Tonawanda, and just jumping into the Hollywood scene and seeing you know flamboyant gay people for the first time, seeing you know lesbians and Mexicans and just this whole different slice of life, you're just exposed to all these things that I wasn't exposed to as a young person and I loved it. I just loved being around all these people and I was a sponge, I was soaking up every cultural thing I could and it was just so fun, you know. And then I started interning at this record company, capital Records, and I did that for a year and I kept just building myself up and doing it and doing it and doing it, to the point where they're calling me at my job at retail Like asking me hey, what's going on with this band and this show and all this stuff to the point where they had to hire me. They were forced to hire me.
Basile:I was going to say. At what point did you say like man, I'm at work. If you want this information, you're going to have to hire me.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, give me a job, start paying me. So that eventually happened, you know, because I had to. I actually got fired from one of the retail jobs oh, and this is where the vintage thing will come in too because I was at this retail place called the Soap Plant and then I got fired from that for well. I went down to Tijuana to see Porno for Pyros and I couldn't get anyone to cover me.
Basile:Were you at those shows?
Tommy Daley:Yes, those very first shows of Porno for Pyros. So I got fired from them. They didn't want to fire me and then they eventually hired me back as part-time because I was such a good employee and a good vibe.
Speaker 1:Do you have photos of
Basile:yourself from this era?
Basile:Yeah
Basile:, I do. I think we need to see that there's something. I think we need to see those.
Tommy Daley:I was the guy with the super long blonde hair. I think we need to see those. I was the guy with the super long blonde hair. I would wear just a vest and skinny jeans with snakeskin cowboy boots tucked into them and you know that whole thing. Mm-hmm, it was fun, but anyway. So they hired me back and then I started working at JetRag, a vintage clothing store. I remember it People that worked at Soap Plant, so plant would like go back and forth between vintage clothes and retail stuff. So then I was working there and then they the same thing happened. I got fired from that because capital was like, hey, we need you to go to San Francisco for this convention, this radio convention, and I couldn't get anyone to cover, so I just, I just like I have to go to this, they're flying me there. So I got fired and they eventually were forced to hire me. And then I was there for 13 years and went all the way up to VP of rock promotion at Capitol Records like that.
Basile:How many years did that take?
Tommy Daley:well, like I said, I was 10 years.
Basile:Oh, it took 10 years for you to get the VP.
Tommy Daley:Well, yeah, it's like all of a sudden you just keep jumping up, you know. Associate director.
Basile:In my mind the story that you just told. It happened in a year, 10 years.
Tommy Daley:Well, then dhow t I dhow mean I stayed in it 10 years. I mean I rose pretty quickly, you know. Well, I mean I stayed in it 10 years. I mean I rose pretty quickly, you know. And then they sent me to New York for New York experience and then I came back and took over the whole rock position after my boss left. You know that's how it works in the record business you get a job you wait for. You know we had the Beatles, the Beach Boys and worked a bunch of Paul McCartney records and Beastie Boys, all the Radiohead records.
Tommy Daley:You know I did heavy metal records Wasp, iron Maiden I got to work those bands, I got to work Coldplay and Foo Fighters. Just it was a wild ride. That was a good time in music. It was the best time in music because every band was, you know, if they were good and they made it. You know they were selling a million to three million records, you know, and it was just wild and fun.
Basile:And then how?
Tommy Daley:did that end? Well, I ended up switching and going over to Geffen Records eventually, because you can only go so far at one company. And then I took a two-year contract at Geffen Records when they relaunched that and that was a whole different thing, because that was the record business. This was like the early 2000s. Everything started changing and Napster came out and kind of everyone was freaked out about that.
Basile:That's when I left Chicago. I was kind of embedded in that. I worked at Universal at one point and then I worked for Jeff McCluskey at one point.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, we used to hire Jeff McCluskey. I know the independent promoter.
Basile:Yeah, the biggest independent promoter in the country.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, he was a real character.
Basile:Still is Lovely man. I mean, I had great experiences with him. I had really bizarre experiences in the office, but yeah, that's for another time. But yeah, I think I might've worked some Geffen projects when I was at Universal.
Tommy Daley:Probably. I mean you know, yeah, I mean it was Universal, so I mean we were the biggest company, so we'd hire everybody. Your listeners probably don't even know what we're talking about, but it's independent promoters, third party, that you'd hire to promote your records at radio stations so they could do the unscrupulous stuff and you wouldn't have to do the—.
Basile:Paola.
Tommy Daley:Paola yeah.
Basile:When your boss is in Mansion on the Hill? Is that the book and Hitman?
Tommy Daley:Yeah, Hitman was one of the books about independent promoters.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Basile:Blowin' hookers.
Tommy Daley:They would take care of the blowin' hookers.
Basile:Just a disclaimer. I had nothing to do with the blowin' hookers part, but I wish I could say the same. I definitely lured in some of the radio folks, so my friends were radio.
Tommy Daley:It was all about relationships and just you know All about relationships.
Basile:One of the things that Jeff did that was brilliant was if there was an industry person who was looking for work, he helped them find work and people always remember you if he helped them find work and people always remember you if you help them find work.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, and he was an outlier too, because he was in Chicago, which was you know. All the record companies were in New York and LA.
Basile:So he was the Midwest guy that had everything covered. You know, yeah, chicago that was the hub for him.
Tommy Daley:And our offices were literally in a house.
Basile:I've been to those offices. Yeah, we all had. We basically had boom boxes on our desks and everything was cassette. It was funny, I shared a desk with a vp and I was one of the associates in new business and consulting.
Tommy Daley:One of the things we did was find artists for festivals, like radio-sponsored festivals, so we would yeah, you would have to interact with people like me at the label, and then we'd go to management and you'd want to book the Foo Fighters for your radio festival. Then you know, you'd have to pay them. You know, although it would be a discount, you'd have to negotiate all that stuff. But, there was budgets because these radio festivals were drawing 100,000 people.
Basile:Yeah.
Tommy Daley:It was part of the deal.
Basile:I had the key to the city, we had the key to the city. If you worked for Jeff in Chicago, it was a wild time.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, the record business was fun. It was like literally time. Yeah, the record business was fun. It was like literally a dream job making tons of money. Huge expense accounts yeah, I mean my expense account, I think, was $40,000 a year.
Tommy Daley:Salacious things happening Well at the end of the day, when you're in radio promotion, you're ultimately an entertainer. You have to, you know, entertain people and build relationships, you know. So take them to shows, whatever strip bars, whatever they wanted to do you'd have to do it Restaurants, it was just a fun time. You know, a lot of that stuff doesn't exist anymore. It's very strict and calculated now and everyone's afraid of doing the wrong thing. So it was just a wild time and there was really no rules.
Basile:You can get away with a lot financially and back then Data, but it wasn't. Everything wasn't necessarily data-driven, and that was before, like you said, before the digital space came into play.
Tommy Daley:Well before the digital space came into play, it was all. I mean, it was about sales. It was about SoundScan and selling records and shipping units. How many. They could tell how many units they shipped, and you know a lot of times they would ship. You know 100, how many. They could tell how many units they shipped, and you know a lot of times they would ship. You know 100,000 CDs but 30 of those would be they wouldn't charge somebody for them. So it was like it was all kind of it was very murky in the record business and it still is, I'm sure.
Basile:Well, and it was a true industry, because you're talking about moving units, so, meaning industry, there was moving product involved, so there was shipping and trucking even involved, there was logistics and manufacturing and all the way through to that radio promoter.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, yeah. Basically we gave them free music and my job was to get them to play that new music that we give them for free. Play it as much as possible and make a hit.
Basile:I did the same when I was at River North, Remember. They sent me down to Tennessee and I called from here like local stations asking for them to play. It was basically just posing as a listener.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, I mean you could do that. I mean, you know, obviously, when you're at a major label, you have an advantage because they want to talk to you, because you can provide them with stuff that they need. You know, smaller labels and independent artists, that's always a struggle. Indeed, you know, smaller labels and independent artists, that's always a struggle. That's why the radio I mean radio right now doesn't even matter. I don't listen to radio anymore. I don't know, I do. I mean, we're old school, you know. But the new generation of music fans don't listen to radio. They listen to Spotify, you know, or Apple Music. So they don't know, they don't even realize what the impact of radio was. Radio was king back then, absolutely, and MTV. If you had a hit on radio and MTV, you were going to sell a million records.
Basile:Did video kill the radio star?
Tommy Daley:No, it didn't. It made them bigger, I mean through the 90s, because of the visual aspect. It just now you could see everybody. I mean I remember watching MTV launch. It was a big deal. Oh yeah, when I was a kid 1980, what? Or 1980, right, it launched and you know I was glued to it all through the 80s, you know. Run home from school and watch it.
Basile:There was music television in the sense that there was like Soul Train that would feature artists, and I mention that because that was a huge part of my childhood. I used to watch it every Saturday, with my grandmother, actually, and I. And then there was American Bandstand. Then there was something when I was in high school that was from the East Coast. I can't remember what it was called, but man, it was bad.
Tommy Daley:There was a bunch of shows like that, a bunch of regional dance and music shows. Yeah, mtv was different because it was like made videos. It was just like it was a radio station for your TV. It was like a mini movie bringing your artists to life, and it was the most exciting thing to ever happen. It revolutionized the record business.
Basile:It was rock and roll and it was sexy, and now it was like in our living room.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, now you can see what you know Pat Benatar's band looked like.
Basile:I keep thinking in my mind Billy Idol, because I'm reading his memoir now and I'm about to go into the part where he's talking about making the music videos. You know, and making of Billy Idol was such his look was such a big part of it, right, Well, when MTV came on it, you know it wasn't just about the music.
Tommy Daley:It's like now you got to look good, and so it kind of elevated the artistry of music as a whole. I think you know Everyone played the game. I mean every artist jumped on it and like, oh what, I can sell three million records instead of one million with.
Basile:But it wasn't always inclusive either.
Tommy Daley:I know that was an issue. They were notorious for keeping black artists off of MTV until Michael Jackson. They were forced to play Michael Jackson.
Basile:Then there was Yo MTV Raps.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, that was starting in the late 80s, early 90s. Yeah.
Basile:Yeah, and there was also Headbangers Ball.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, which was kind of a toss-away show, you know.
Basile:Yeah, I mean, they evolved T they evolved toss away.
Tommy Daley:I watched it every on the weekend. Oh, I know it was that I watched it religiously that lawn was on there and ricky, ricky rackman oh, I know, I, I know everything about it.
Basile:I watched it all the time it's just so funny when you're an adult and you interact with these folks now in a friendly way and it makes me laugh because I was 16, rode my bike to Tammy's house and we'd have sleepovers and watch Headbangers Ball.
Tommy Daley:It would be midnight on Saturday night.
Basile:Yeah, every weekend.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, it was great.
Basile:Such a huge part of our culture, at least mine. You better quit fucking with that coffee cup.
Tommy Daley:I'm almost done. It's matcha.
Basile:Oh, it's matcha. Is it part of your morning routine?
Tommy Daley:Yes.
Basile:Okay, so before we get into that, because you said something earlier about the different decades and where you were at as a person or as a man, and you said something about you became a man at that point. But I want to get back to that. I'm not there quite yet. So you just got out of the music I know because you're still in it you switched to Geffen, and then what happened?
Tommy Daley:Well, I worked for Geffen for two years in Santa Monica and it just stopped being as fun as it used to be because it was all. The rules had changed, Music had changed, Everyone was on edge. You couldn't do all the things you could do before and the company I was working for you know, Jimmy Iovine was still running. You know Interscope and everything, and my boss worked for him and Geffen, we worked for them. So it just got really strict and your opinion didn't matter.
Basile:But Interscope was still forward thinking.
Tommy Daley:They were still doing a lot of A&R Musically, but just in terms of their employees. And, look, I was paid really well and it was a very prestigious job, but it just sucked the soul right out of me and the fun disappeared and it was just like, oh, they don't give a shit about what I think or what I do at all, what I think or what I do at all. And you know, I started becoming reacquainted with my creative side and wanted to explore that more. So that's when I started looking at Nashville, actually, and I started noticing that country was doing something different and people were a little bit more passionate. I was watching all these huge country stars like Keith Urban, everybody blow up. So then I was like, oh, maybe I'll get back into guitar playing. And that's what I did. I started playing guitar again. I took some sideman gigs and some rock bands and learned how to write songs and became interested in the Nashville way of writing songs and did a couple of reconnaissance missions to Nashville just to check it out.
Tommy Daley:And you know, and that's when I got sober at the end of my Geffen thing because I became an you know, alcoholic and a drug addict thanks to the record business those last two years.
Basile:Yeah, that's why I got out of it, but then it followed me.
Tommy Daley:It followed me. I got sober in LA, stopped and you know that last year of being in the record business I was a full-blown alcoholic.
Basile:Did you go to treatment or did you just go to meetings and stuff?
Tommy Daley:I used Alcoholics Anonymous and I just jumped into that. For a year I got sober in LA. For a year I would go to the log cabin in Beverly Hills.
Basile:The log cabin.
Tommy Daley:Every morning at 730 and then I would go hike Runyon Canyon and it was very difficult. I saw someone get punched out at the log cabin. Yeah, I mean it was wild. It was wild. But yeah, I mean I just, you know, I didn't even realize I had a problem until, you know, until I had a problem. And then I was like, oh, wait a minute, I really can't stop doing this, I can't stop drinking and I can't stop doing drugs once I start.
Basile:So who was the person that inspired you, or what inspired you, to get sober?
Tommy Daley:Yeah, Well, it was just losing a weekend and you know, waking up and like thinking I can't do this no longer. You know I can't do it anymore. I just decided in that moment, in a sense of certainty, when I lost a whole day and I didn't even realize.
Basile:But how did you know? Like I had no idea what AA was, it just seemed like such a full concept.
Tommy Daley:Well, I flirted with it because my circle of friends were, you know, I was starting to let them down a lot and disappear and missing work and you know, just having all this anxiety and just I was powerless, over drugs and alcohol, I couldn't stop, you know. But I was also a high-functioning executive so I could work all week and then go binge on the weekends.
Basile:And the music business sometimes allowed for that lifestyle. It did, it encouraged it, which made it easier and harder to stop.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, and money wasn't an issue and it was just as long as you showed up and did your job. No one's going to get mad at you for going out and drinking and staying up all night, but that's what I mean. Things started changing and then I just it was runaway. I couldn't stop, you know, and so I just had a binge weekend, lost a whole day. I was like I thought it was Saturday and it was Sunday. It was just, you know, taking somebody home that I met on Thursday, I just it was.
Tommy Daley:I didn't know what was going on. So then I just stopped myself and in a moment of clarity I just decided okay, I'm going to stop, I'm going to go to AA. So I called the guy that I knew that was in AA and he said no, because he was disappointed in me, because I had blew him off, or something like that. And then he called back and said all right, I want to take you there. So then they took me to AA and I just listened. Basically, they just said just listen, and that's all I did. I would go every day and just listen, and I knew I needed help. I accepted that fact and I just did what they told me to do, got a sponsor and did the work and got sober.
Tommy Daley:I mean, it wasn't easy and I never faltered. And it's been 18 years since then. I never faltered. And it's been 18 years since then. They said don't make any big changes for a year. So I got sober for a year and then I sold my house and moved to Nashville to start a new creative life and renew my creative side and learn how to song, write and learn how to play guitar and become a hired gun and do that whole thing. And that's what got me here and I moved here and I didn't know anybody. I just moved here, rented a house and started going out and around and figuring it out.
Basile:What did sobriety look like in Nashville for you at that time?
Tommy Daley:Well, it's completely different than Los Angeles sobriety. So I mean, I tried to stay in that world but it was a lot different. It is different. It's a lot different and this is definitely a drinking town. You know, it seemed like people didn't understand, at least in the circles I was roaming. You know, when you're trying to be a songwriter and a musician, you're going to hang out at bars. So I had to go to bars and you know songwriter nights and you know where everyone's drinking and it's like, hey, let's get a drink, let's have a beer, come on now.
Basile:I had people tell me here I don't trust anyone that doesn't drink.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, I've had that happen before. Yeah, I mean, that's just a ridiculous statement and doesn't make any sense and shows ignorance on someone's part.
Basile:Well, I also noticed the people that vocalize things like that are usually the ones that are curious about what it's like to be sober, about what it's like to be sober Anyone that's giving me shit about being sober whether it's someone after a Motley Crue show in LA or someone at a business dinner in Nashville anyone that's been giving me shit I can kind of tell that they should probably stop doing whatever they're doing.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, usually when someone says something as ignorant as I don't trust anyone who doesn't drink. You know that's because someone told them that or they saw it in a movie or a TV show or something like that, and you know that's a sign to just find a new friend. You know it's like you know Well, it's hard to when it's your boss.
Tommy Daley:Or a hit songwriter that you want to get to know and things like that. But yeah, you know, you just have to navigate that stuff. It's part of the deal, you know. It tests your resolve and you know.
Basile:At the time it freaked me out. Now I would just laugh in someone's face and be like hey, if you ever want to go to a meeting, keep coming back, right? No, I agree with you that it's different here than it was in Los Angeles. I always say you could throw a nickel and hit a meeting in LA, and at dinners someone would offer you something and my response would be like no, I don't drink. And then they're like oh, are you sober? Yeah, oh well, so is my girlfriend anyway, or so was my mom. Hey, I am too. It was so easy. It was kind of like hey, I'm sober was the equivalent of pass assault or you know whatever. At dinner it didn't matter.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, I find that you know, the farther down the road I get in life, you know, I don't, that stuff doesn't bother me and it doesn't encounter me. You know, you kind of gravitate towards people. You know, if you're, if you're going to go downtown and hang out at Broadway at 230 in the morning, you know, yeah, you're going to encounter people like that, but that's not what I'm interested in right now. So I don't really. I mean my sobriety is I forget that I'm sober a lot of times, honestly, like it's just part of who I am now. It just is. Yeah, it's just I know what will happen. I don't, you know, I haven't been hungover in 18 years, which is phenomenal. You know I don't have any. I don't wake up with shame or guilt, you know, never. I mean no, not really. I try to live a life of rigor.
Basile:No, I think right when I'm self-examining, sometimes I do experience shame and guilt.
Tommy Daley:I mean, you know, for other reasons, yeah, Not because I blacked out and did something stupid or said something ridiculous. Yeah, I mean, life still has its challenges, you know, it's just now, when you know someone throws a wrench in your life. I've got better tools to deal with it than going and drinking you know, Because that never really works anyways.
Basile:No, and I think it's human to say, oh, I'd love to have a drink to soften this, but in my case it would just make things messier.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, it does, and sometimes it takes people a long time to figure that out. And you know, I'm glad I figured it out and my experience getting sober is good. You know, I don't even think about it anymore. I mean, I don't, I'm not obsessed to drink and the idea of drinking just repulses me. It's like I don't want that feeling. You know, because I'm so focused on my life right now and my happiness that that would just get in the way. It just gets in the way, right For me.
Basile:It is a difficult road to go through life completely aware and awake. There is no numbing out, so it's challenging, but it makes for a better experience overall.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, there's no hiding. You can't run away from problems. You have to deal with problems head on and that's what being sober this long gives me. I can handle any situation that comes up in front of me. You know, not always perfectly and I don't know everything, and you know, but I know how to break something down and fix it. You know it doesn't always work and it's not easy, but I can.
Basile:Yeah, I think the act of surrender, not always having expectations, not taking things personally, those are things that I may have learned, but I probably learned that faster being in 12-step.
Tommy Daley:Well, yeah, 12-step, well, yeah, 12-step I mean there's lots of 12-step is incorporated into a lot of different philosophies of life. You know, because it works. It's just almost common sense, you know.
Basile:Right, and a lot of philosophies. The one that I've studied, there's many parallels. The one that I've studied, there's many parallels and I think I, just I, you don't graduate from being sober and you don't, but you do grow, and I've moved away from some things and just yeah, I continue to. I guess, learn tools, new tools, from other things too besides 12-step.
Tommy Daley:Well, it's growth. I mean, growth is the most important thing we as humans can do. Grow or die. Yeah, grow or die. Never stop learning. And you know, every time I learn something new, it reminds me that I don't know shit. You know, you're never going to know everything. You know and you're always going to learn something new. And I love that about life. You know, I crave it. I'm thirsty for knowledge about everything you know.
Basile:Yeah, no, you're an interesting guy and you're running basically the hottest vintage store here in Nashville. It's a brand. I mean, it's not just a shop, it's a brand and you have a huge online presence.
Tommy Daley:Yeah Well, yeah, my business Black Shack Vintage is. You know it's a labor of love and it. You know I didn't plan to do this. You know I didn't plan to be a small business owner in, you know, in the used apparel market. But it's been eight years now and thank you for saying that. You know, I mean, I don't always see it like that. I see it, as you know, constantly trying to grow and get better, you know.
Basile:You know, I see it as a brand, because I've said let's do this, let's promote this, let's I see Black Shack as this entity.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, it has developed into a brand. I mean, I acknowledge that, you know, and I feel good about it. You know, I mean we do a thing. We do a thing that a lot of other stores don't, and you know, and it comes down to, I guess, rapport and just, you know, having a good staff and having cool people around and just creating a remarkable shopping experience. That's what it is, you know.
Basile:Well, anything that you're marketing, it's in the experience. You want to give the consumer an experience, one that they'll remember, one that they'll come back for, and one that they can identify with your brand. It's just cool.
Tommy Daley:I just want people to come in and be like, oh my God, this is the coolest thing ever. I used to have that t-shirt when I was a kid. You know Everyone's just cool. I just want people to come in and be like, oh my God, this is the coolest thing ever. I used to have that T-shirt when I was a kid. You know everyone's so cool there. You know it's great. You know, I just want to create this unique shopping experience that people are going to want to tell all their friends about, you know.
Basile:And how did you start it? Because you skipped over that. How did it start? Well, I was doing the songwriting thing and then I realized that you say that you were doing that, but we've recently had conversations where you said you went to workshops and you actually learned about songwriting itself before you were songwriting.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, when I moved to Nashville I jumped into songwriting like I do with anything, I go headfirst and I just go for it. So I started doing all the songwriting workshops, Tin Pan South and all that stuff, and going to NSAI events and just going to, you know, writers rounds, and I just started doing that co-writing with every writer I could, pitching to publishers, doing all that stuff, learning the craft of songwriting, which in and of itself is a wonderful thing and that's a skill that never leaves you, like how to write a song, did you have any home runs? No, I had some small victories with some publishers, with some publishers taking my songs, you know, and seeing the potential. But you know, after a while, after about a year of doing it, I realized like I don't think this is who I want to be. I realized I didn't want to be that songwriter guy always hustling for a cut, you know.
Basile:And it seems oversaturated here.
Tommy Daley:It does. It just didn't feel like it was me. I was writing things for radio and that's not the. I know how to write a song. Like I'm going to switch gears and go back to my roots, which was the first thing you know.
Tommy Daley:When I was 12 years old I started playing guitar. I wanted to be a lead guitar player and just a rock star. So I'm like you know what? I'm just going back to that. So I became a guitar player and then I started doing gigs and jumping up on stage and then I just started taking gigs and being, you know, like, okay, I'll try this hired gun thing. And so people would just hire me to go play shows and go tour and you know, anybody that would ask. I was saying yes to everything and it was fun. And I got to tour Europe and I got to do all this great stuff and play all these big stages and learn all these new techniques and learn how to chicken pick and blues and all these great forms of music, you know. And then after a while I was like I didn't like it. I didn't like working for people.
Basile:Well, being a hired gun is difficult, yeah, I mean, it's not always a huge payday. It's a hustle, right? It's a hustle, and you're plugging into someone else's creative endeavor. It's never about you, right? You're plugging into someone else's dream, someone else's tour, someone else's.
Tommy Daley:And look, I'm not knocking that. I think that's fantastic People that are musicians. They come here to work and they do it. You know, this is just a self-discovery thing. This is my experience, you know. I mean, I have tons of friends who are, you know, sideman musicians and they love it, they have wonderful lives and they do it. I mean, it is a grind sometimes, you know.
Basile:I think. From what I understand, it seems like because we're all looking for ground underneath our feet. When you're a hired gun, it's hard because you don't know how long that's going to last and you don't know what the next gig is going to be. So I was kind of waiting for the axe to drop.
Tommy Daley:You know what I mean. I mean and that's true, it's like you know stability is there's no security right.
Tommy Daley:You know, you could be gone. You could spend like six months like building this band with somebody and an artist yeah, this is great, great and then like, hey, I'm changing direction, you're out, you know. So I didn't like that, I don't, I just don't. You know, if I was 20, 25 or something like that, I could, I could handle that. But I was in my late 30s at this point and I was like I don't want to do this. I've already had a. This is my second career, you know.
Basile:So I I just didn't like working for people you know, but it was probably a nice way for you to get involved here and meet people and establish yourself in Nashville.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, it definitely did, and the experiences were great and I, you know, I just kept adding tools to my toolbox of life, you know, and I just decided that. You know, I didn't want to do that. So I was like, okay, I'm going to do what I truly love, what I've always wanted to do since I was a boy, and so I started my own band. I started my own rock and roll band called Black Shag that's where I got the Black Shag name from. I forget that sometimes. Yeah, so I started this power trio and, you know, just wrote all my own songs and I couldn't find a singer. So I ended up singing. So I took vocal lessons and tried to be a lead singer, which is, you know, I was just a guitar player singing.
Basile:Is that where James Lugo came in?
Tommy Daley:Yeah, definitely yeah. You were doing your warmups earlier before we jumped on air. Yeah, you got to keep your voice straight, but yeah, I tried really hard to do it and you know it was more of just a personal thing. I had to do it for my soul. I had to have my own band and make a record and do it and put it out there.
Basile:So can we find Black Shad's music out there?
Tommy Daley:There's somewhere like an EP or something like that's out there. You know, in hindsight it is what it is. You know I'm going to find it. Yeah well, you can, but it was fun. It was fun. I had to do it for my soul.
Basile:Right. You might always wonder what would have happened if you had tried that. So you did it.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, I built the home studio and did the whole thing, tried to record and produce and write everything myself.
Speaker 4:You did.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, exactly. But again, you know it's like this is great if you're 25 and you move to LA, but I mean I was like switching gears and you know I didn't want to drive around in a van and play for like two people, you know, because it's very difficult, you know, to start a rock band in your late 30s and early 40s it is.
Basile:It's a hustle and sometimes you do have to do the van before you graduate to a bus or a plane.
Tommy Daley:So that's where the name Black Shag came from. So I was doing that. And then I was like, oh, you know a few years of that. I'm like, all right, so I'm just going to switch gears. I started and I've always been a big vinyl collector, you know vinyl LPs and stuff. So I bought this jukebox on Craigslist, this like 60s jukebox that played 45s. So I'm like, oh, this is cool, it works.
Tommy Daley:So then I went nuts buying 45s, you know, to have the greatest jukebox in the world with the greatest songs on there, you know. So you know, and then after a couple of months I'm like I got 3,000 45s and I'm like I got way too many 45s. What am I doing here? I'm like obsessed. So then I just set up at a record convention to sell my 45s. And then some dude was there he said, oh, you should set up at the Nashville flea market and sell these 45s. You can share a booth with me. So I set up my 45s there and then I'm selling at the Nashville flea market, which is once a month. You know, this is just like a hobby really, and you know. And then I see all these other. I saw this guy sitting outside like selling old t-shirts and cut off jean shorts. I'm like this dude is killing it out there. Like I started selling at the flea market every month and I also had four booths and I just kept getting bigger and bigger and like I'm being really successful at it.
Basile:It was fun for you to source what you were selling.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, and that informed my LA roots working at JetRag and my mom also had a vintage clothing store in Buffalo growing up when I moved away.
Basile:Oh, I didn't know that.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, I used to go to flea markets with her as a boy, so it was kind of always in there and I was always a vintage enthusiast. And you know, when I was in the record business I was the guy wearing like cool vintage shirts and you know pants and you know concert t-shirts and stuff. So it was always part of my aesthetic, you know. And then it became this thing and I just set up these big booths at the flea market. Once in a while the people come and come to my booth. I'm like, oh my god, this stuff's amazing. Do you have a shop? And I got sick of saying no. So I went and looked around and found a shop and where was the first location where I started doing?
Tommy Daley:antique mall booths where you could put your stuff and just let it sit there for.
Basile:Like East Nashville Antiques right here yeah except they were on 8th and Wedgwood.
Tommy Daley:Okay, I had that and I had one in Germantown and then I would set up at the flea market. So it was a hustle but I actually really enjoyed it. You know, it was fun and I was good at it, probably get to meet a lot of cool people.
Basile:Yeah, you do and talk music and it was validation.
Tommy Daley:People like, wow, when people buy something that you find and it just feels good and it makes them so happy and it was just a rewarding experience, like every day because of something I did, you know, and I didn't have to answer to anybody. I didn't have to.
Tommy Daley:Oh it's such a beautiful thing to be an entrepreneur and get to make your own schedule and handle your own shit yeah for sure. So that was happening and I'm like, okay, I'm just going to jump into this thing. So then I found a retail place this old fire station, all of a sudden drove by. I've been looking at it for years and all of a sudden there was a for lease sign. So I just jumped in there. I used all my persuasion skills that I learned in the record business and I went and got a space and set it up and just grew it.
Basile:And that's where you guys are now.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, and now we're like this super cool rock and roll vintage store and because I've always loved records, like, oh wait, I have a shop, I can start my own record. Oh, you almost have to have records in there. So then you know, here I am, you know, I don't have a boss, I'm running my own business. I'm like, okay, I want a record store, so I'm going to start selling records. And oh, I'm gonna sell concert t-shirts. Yeah, oh, I love turquoise jewelry. I'm going to get some of that. So I could just do whatever I wanted and based on what I love. And I think that's why it's successful, because it's truly curated by my passion for all things cool or what I do. So I'm grateful for that and it's working. And I'm about to launch a second location, actually in Nashville, in Marathon Village, and see if I can do it twice.
Basile:I know you can do it twice. What's the address of the East Nashville location?
Tommy Daley:1220 Gallatin Avenue. It's in a historic fire station that was built in 1930. It's cool, it's super cool and I'm very grateful and fortunate to have that space. It's a dream and it works well with what I do.
Basile:Yeah, and then you're also online.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, we have blackshagvintagecom, you know a couple thousand pieces and that's been going well for years. So yeah, it's this little thing, it's a vibe, you know.
Basile:And at the new location you're going to have a little place to hang.
Tommy Daley:Well, I mean, in itself it's a hang it is a hang.
Basile:It's a hang. We know that I'm there all the time.
Tommy Daley:But yeah, it's a good place to hang out. I mean we'll see. I mean I'm building it out right now. I'm going to go over there today and finish building it out and paint and set up racks and the whole thing.
Basile:You're going to have a big like grand opening parking lot bash.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, we'll have a grand opening gala.
Basile:Have some music.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, have some music. Is Black Shag?
Basile:going to play? No, but that's why don't you? That'd be so funny.
Tommy Daley:It's definitely something I want to explore again, you know, and just need the time to put it together.
Basile:Well, yeah, because you don't want to explore again, you know, and just need the time to put it together. Well, yeah, because you don't want to get up there and just, you know, wing it, you're going to have to rehearse and it's a time thing like running a small business is pretty much 24-7 and then oh yeah, you're one of the busiest people I know. I mean to get you. I've been asking you for two years to come on the show, maybe even three.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, well here and thank you for having me Well of course I know it's unrehearsed, I'm just going all over the place, but yeah.
Basile:No, it's just a conversation.
Tommy Daley:That's all it is.
Basile:So what else do you want to know? I mean, I just ask you what I want to know on the daily. So no pun intended. Are you a relation to?
Tommy Daley:the Chicago Daily family Somewhere down the family tree. Yeah, I mean, let me put it this way I could have you know I would get out of speeding tickets and stuff a lot in Chicago if I got pulled over. Because, yeah, I mean somewhere down the family tree but not directly related to it, but there's a lot of dailies in Chicago.
Basile:Oh yeah.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, that was an empire at one time and a lot of my I mean I was born in Chicago, yeah, but I moved to Buffalo, you know, when I was one year old, because my dad got a job, so but, yeah, we'd go back to Chicago all the time, you know, and all of my cousins and everybody lived there.
Basile:Maybe that's where you get your work ethic. Like you have an innate work ethic like no one I've seen.
Tommy Daley:Well, I think I got the work ethic from being in the record business, because there was no room for error there. You can't sit around when you're in LA. It's like, well, you need to call so-and-so and see what this is. Oh, and there's always somebody that wants your job and it's you know, someone would tell you to call someone and then be like I meant now, call them now and get it done. True, that's true. So it's not like, oh, I'll get around to it, it's like, oh, I'll email them later.
Basile:Or I'll wait. Hold on, I have other stuff to do.
Tommy Daley:I'll get to that tomorrow, like go, you have to go, and that's where I learned my work ethic. And you know you have to go, do the thing all the time, that's funny.
Basile:I never thought about that. But I like to do things immediately, like if I'm told to do something or I need to send an invoice or whatever, I'm going to do it right now and it's crossed off the list. I never have to think about it again.
Tommy Daley:Well, we can talk about productivity. I mean, one of the things that I like to do is, if it takes less than five minutes, do it now.
Basile:Right.
Tommy Daley:You know, and I try to teach that to my staff. It's like do it, you know.
Basile:They don't understand. They're learning a lot from you. They won't know it now. They'll know it later.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, and I didn't know it now when I was being trained. You know, you just learn and you know I love productivity and I love being efficient and doing stuff. You know.
Basile:Well, philosophically, we work for work's sake.
Tommy Daley:If you can do something that you love's a huge bonus, and it ends up not feeling like work well, that's where I am, like there's a lot of work involved and I do get tired and I'm like, oh, I gotta do this or whatever, but I still love what I do. It's this is the funnest job I've ever had. I mean, the record business was fun in the nineties, it was great, and but you know, I was working for somebody else. Now I'm building my little vintage empire on my own and, you know, with my staff, and I don't have to answer to anybody, I have to answer to myself, you know. So you have to work hard. I mean, I could, you know, say, oh, I'm going to close on Sundays, you know, and you know, but then I would lose all that money and I just I can't stop working, you know.
Basile:I'm guessing that you have crunched the numbers and looked at productivity and days of the week, the flow of traffic in the store and all of those things to make those decisions. But are you hitting pause and taking care of yourself?
Tommy Daley:Yeah, I do. I mean I try to, you know, have my morning rituals and things like that.
Basile:I was going to ask about the matcha. I'm like, what are Tommy Daly's morning rituals?
Tommy Daley:Well, I mean, the first thing I do in the morning when I wake up is I scrape my tongue for one. That's the first thing I do. I scrape my tongue too, get rid of all that bacteria. And then I drink a big glass of water with Himalayan salt and half a lemon. I just guzzle that down. I take my supplements. You know my morning.
Basile:Why the?
Tommy Daley:salt For electrolytes just to replenish your body. Rehydrate your body first thing in the morning.
Basile:I do lemon, olive oil and cayenne pepper. I mean, yeah, that's a thing, it helps move things around.
Tommy Daley:So I hydrate myself, and then matcha tea is my favorite. I'm addicted to matcha. Are you still walking every morning? Not every morning, but I also have an inside exercise bike. I try to do 20 minutes on that or take a walk and I do yoga. I practice yoga every morning at least some sort of stretching yoga thing by myself, you know.
Basile:Meditation.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, meditation is one thing I haven't been able to really harness yet, but I guess I meditate in my own way. My yoga is my meditation and I can find stillness. But that's one of the things that I'm working on and I would like to grow into this year is get my meditation together better.
Basile:Well, you just gave me an idea. I know what book I'm going to get you Cool. Speaking of books, I know you read because I get some ideas from you. The book on AI Future Proof that came from you. I've talked about it here on the podcast. Yeah, Awesome, and it was an easy read. Whoever that writer is, I forget his name. I forgot his name too, but it's a great book. I mean, it was an easy read because he just made it super digestible and it was good.
Tommy Daley:Well, those are my favorite favorite authors that make it fun. You know, not such a Make learning fun, not manual like you know what are you reading now.
Tommy Daley:I just started Ryan Holiday's book Ego is the Enemy. That's his new one, right? I don't think it's new, it's been out, but he has a whole series on virtues of stoicism. I've read a few of his books and you know I was saving the Ego one and it's actually I'm reading. I just started it and it's like it's the perfect book to read as I'm trying to launch a new business and you know how? About how ego. I haven't gotten deep in it so I can't describe it, but he's a wonderful author and he teaches great stoicism.
Basile:I'm reading when Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron Again, I don't know that, but yeah, and I think I was reading about ego yesterday. I read stuff like that in chunks and then I'll do my yoga meditation and kind of sit in it and think how can I apply this to what's going on right now? And so I've been doing that every morning forever. I remember when I was immersed in 12-step it was pages 86 through 88. I think I read that every day in the morning for a year.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, I think I did that too when I first got sober.
Basile:That'd be something interesting for me to pick up again. But 86 through 88 in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, yeah, and then you subscribe to a vegan diet and lifestyle.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, do you wear leather? I mean, I have some vintage leather. I mean I don't. I don't necessarily identify as like a vegan because of the label. I prefer plant-based. Everything in my life is plant-based that seems like a modern term for that. Well, because there's some negative connotations with veganism, because there's so much misinformation out there about it and you know it seems to be a polarizing subject sometimes. So I just avoid that by, you know.
Basile:Well, people also get the. How do you know someone does CrossFit.
Tommy Daley:They'll tell you.
Basile:How do you know someone's a vegan?
Tommy Daley:Because they'll tell you. I mean, I've heard all the jokes and everything like that.
Basile:Right, I'm sure we can find out other things, but I get it. I like plant-based. How do you know someone's newly sober? But I get it. I like plant-based. How do you know someone's newly sober? They'll tell you, yeah. How do you know someone's an AA? They'll tell you Alcoholics Anonymous. Yeah, they'll tell you. Yeah, well, thank you for coming by. I do have a ton of questions. Maybe we'll save another episode for after the second location opens and we'll ask you how that went.
Tommy Daley:Sure, I mean, yeah, it's exciting stuff. Well, thanks for having me. This is a pleasure. Yeah, I mean, I didn't know where it was going to go and I hope it's interesting to people.
Basile:Well, yeah, it's always interesting and we do. I think most of the episodes have a music thread. This is the last episode that's not going to be on video. We're switching to a different platform and growing the podcast, which is really exciting, so I definitely want you to come back once things get rolling.
Tommy Daley:Well, you should go back to video. I like watching podcasts on YouTube too.
Basile:That's. I listen, that's what I'm working on these days. So I've been really busy building something, and not all of it's fun, but it's an investment in yourself and I'm the type where I want instant gratification or immediate reward in that, like I want my bank statement to look bigger at the end of the day. You know, after all this work I'm putting into something. But that's what it is. It's you're putting, you're investing in yourself. Do what you love and the money will follow. Pretty much that's kind of what I did when I was a yoga counselor. Humility, yeah, for real. Like you can't go into something wanting to make a million dollars or I'm gonna go into this to be famous. No, if you do it because you love it and also, at the core of it, if you just really wanna engage with others and maybe even help other people somehow, that's also propelling.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, exactly, I think the reason that my current vintage clothing business is successful is because I love it. I'm not trying to make money. I mean the money is like a byproduct and you're employing young musicians in town. I'm a job creator.
Basile:You're a job creator and the gigs that they have kind of.
Tommy Daley:Well, it's a pain in the ass hiring young musicians in town. It is but Because they're always going to gigs.
Basile:I see and I support their dream. It's really good for them because it's parallel to what they're doing, because of the visual aspect of things. And so there's that styling thing which we didn't even touch on because, Well, yeah, I mean we could have a whole podcast on black shag and what it is really.
Tommy Daley:I mean, people are just Maybe that's part two. I mean we can do a part two because I have a lot of ideas about all of that.
Basile:Right. Well, you have your finger on the pulse of that piece, and that's a huge piece of what happens here in Nashville behind the scenes that people don't even know about the styling world. That's a job in itself.
Tommy Daley:Yeah, the styling world, and we have a ton of celebrities that shop us.
Basile:Let's leave them with. Can we tell them the Harry Styles story? Let's leave them with that. No, no, it's cute.
Tommy Daley:Let's save that for next time, really, let's do a Black Shag Vintage podcast where we can actually talk about that and incorporate some of the other stuff we did.
Basile:Okay. Well then, I have you on the hook for part two. Okay, right on. Well, have a good rest of your day. Thank you, and I end every show by saying take care of one another. Take care of one another. Bye-bye now. I'd like to ask you something. We've got time All right.
Speaker 1:It occurred to me, having watched MTV over the last few months, that it's a solid enterprise and it's got a lot going for it. I'm just floored by the fact that there's so few black artists featured on it. Why is that?
Speaker 4:I think that we're trying to move in that direction. We want to play artists that seem to be doing music that fits into what we want to play for MTV. The company is thinking in terms of narrow casting.
Speaker 1:That's evident. It's evident in the fact that the only few black artists that one does see are on about 2.30 in the morning to around 6. Very few are featured, predominantly during the day. No, I'll say that over the last couple of weeks these things have been changing.
Speaker 4:but it's a slow process. I know it's funny. I think people have different perceptions. When you wind up watching let's say you watch an hour or two or even three a day people somehow come away with different ideas about what we are doing. We don't have any kind of day partying for anything, let alone a black artist day partied out of what would be quote, prime time. We don't have that.
Speaker 1:Because one sees a lot on the. There's one black station on television that I keep picking up. I'm not sure which station it's on, but there seem to be a lot of black artists making very good videos that I'm surprised aren't used on MTV.
Speaker 4:Well, of course also we have to try and do what we think not only New York and Los Angeles will appreciate, but also Poughkeepsie or Midwest Pick some town in the Midwest that will be scared to death by Prince, which we're playing, or a string of other black faces and black music.
Speaker 4:That's very interesting, Isn't that interesting? We have to play the music that we think an entire country is going to like, and certainly we're a rock and roll station. Now the question would be asked well, should, since we're in New York, should PLJ play the Isley Brothers? Well, you and I might say yeah, because we have grown up in an era when the Isley Brothers mean something to me, and so do the Spinners, even way after the Isley Brothers. But what does it mean to a 17-year-old? Well, if you talk on the phones to these guys, like I did when I was in radio, it's scary.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll tell you what it means. I did when I was in radio. Well, I'll tell you what it means. I'll tell you what maybe the Isley Brothers or Marvin Gaye means to a black 17-year-old.
Speaker 4:Ah, and surely he's part of America as well.
Speaker 1:No question, no question, and that's why you're seeing those things, do you not find that it's a frightening predicament to be in?
Speaker 4:Yeah, but less so here than in radio.
Speaker 1:And is it not well? Don't say well, it's not me, it's them. Is it not possible that it should be a? Conviction of the station and of other radio stations. To be fair, it does seem to be rampant through American media. Should it not be a challenge to try and make the media far more integrated? In music especially of anything in musical terms.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. I think it's happening because white music and white musicians are now starting to play more than ever more than they have lately, let's say in the last 10 years what black artists have been into. And now, hopefully, the lines are going to start to blur. And when we play a band like ABC, well, there's white and black kids who are enjoying it and all of a sudden, well, it's a little bit easier for a white kid to understand it. The fact is, quite frankly I could even point you towards a letter in the new issue of the Record, the magazine the Record, responding to an article by Dave Marsh that this kid just ranted about what he didn't want to see on MTV.
Speaker 1:Well, that's his problem and in no uncertain terms.
Speaker 4:Well, what I'm saying, though, is that there's, as you say, there's certainly a lot of black kids and white kids who may want to see black music. There's a ton of them who are. It's not like it was in 67, where you say yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm not into that, you know.
Speaker 4:But you are Now it's you're into that. I don't like you and that's scary and we can't just turn around and go. Well, look, this is the right way. We can only teach, I think, a little bit at a time Interesting.
Speaker 1:Okay, thank you very much. Does that make sense? Valid point. I understand your point of view.